Talk:All-time Olympic Games medal table/Archive 4

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Archive 5

Medals won per sex

Is there some list somewhere that has countries' medals per sex? Male and female? –HTD 06:46, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

WP:RS violation: "The IOC being the "key (and only) authority" on this article."

I have noticed that many Olympic articles that are treated like the IOC's "bitch" are in strict violation with WP:RS and do not use independent or third-party sources - and so is this "All-time Olympic Games medal table":

"Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided. Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to the original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors ... Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them."

However, the lead of this article states the following. "The IOC itself does not publish all-time tables, and publishes unofficial tables only per single Games. This table was thus compiled by adding up single entries from the IOC database."

Therefore, the article is clearly in violation with WP:RS. For one thing, the article does analyse primary source data that must be referenced to a secondary source - and for another thing the entire article is based on primary sources, or even worse - on "one" primary source.

Why don't we just "copy & paste" all IOC material right into the WP - would save a lot of work.... but then, that's exactly what did happen here, didn't it? "Robots at work!" --IIIraute (talk) 02:28, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

The IOC is the body that stages and regulates these events so they have the ultimate authority. Jmj713 (talk) 04:58, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

NO, Jim - they do not. The WP is independent and is not owned or "regulated" by the IOC - nor does the IOC have "ultimate authority" over the content of this article. I recommend you do read "WP:RS" more carefully. The IOC is not an independent, third-party source - and doesn't even publish "official" tables per single Games.. --IIIraute (talk) 05:16, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

The IOC see does not have direct authority over this article; this article is based on facts about Olympic medallists. On the other hand, the IOC does have the authority to define the facts e.g. who competed for which nation, inasmuch as presenting something not consistent with their database is factually incorrect. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 14:36, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

There are many cases like this in Olympic history. Geopolitics change. And I'm sure Germans would rather all stats be combined, including East Germany, as Russians would like to see Soviet Union and Russian Empire stats combined. Even Malaysia, which didn't win any medals at the time, doesn't get to count participation in 1956 and 1960 as Malaya and in 1956 as North Borneo. But we have to look at the facts, not wishes, because we have to remain neutral. Jmj713 (talk) 15:06, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

It does not change the fact that the IOC is not an independent, third-party source - this article is in strict violation with WP:RS. The entire article is based on IOC data. Editors are not permitted to base an entire article on primary sources. IOC data is a primary source - the data used must be referenced to secondary sources. Please also note: The IOC is an organization generating billions US$ in revenue through sponsorship, ticketing and licensing programs during the Olympic quadrennium and has been involved in several controversies and scandals, therefore the neutrality and independence of this article is very much disputed. --IIIraute (talk) 17:47, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

You realize there's logic to why Germany is viewed this way by the IOC? The pre-WWII country of Germany and the post-1990 Germany is the same and thus used the code GER. In between there were two Germanys in existence and there were different countries, and neither was Germany. For a time they both appeared together, but that was another entity, like the post-Soviet Unified Team, which isn't counted with USSR. After the reunification, the two counties merged and once again it was just Germany. If you objectively can't see the logic in this, then we're just wasting time going through this debate in circles. Also, you can take a look in the archives as this issue with Germany came up a number of times before, and the years-long consensus is to conform to the IOC. And this should be reflected on all Olympics articles, including Germany at the Olympics. Jmj713 (talk) 17:58, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

This is not what this talk here is about. The neutrality and independence of this article is disputed. The IOC is not an independent, third-party source - this article is in strict violation with WP:RS. The entire article is based on IOC data. IOC data is a primary source. Editors are not permitted to base an entire article on primary sources - the data used must be referenced to secondary sources - also, more "non-primary" sources must be added to this article. -- (P.S. According to international law: The USSR and Russia are not the same country. The USSR was an amalgamation of several countries. 15 constituent republics emerged from the dissolution of the Soviet Union as independent post-Soviet states. One of them, Russia. Russias' NOC was founded in 1989. - The pre-1989 Federal Republic of Germany and the post-1989 Federal Republic of Germany are the same country, with the same NOC founded in 1895.) --IIIraute (talk) 18:41, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

So if at some future date North and South Korea reunite and participate in the Olympics as Korea you would want to combine those records too? It just looks like a case if I Don't Like It. Jmj713 (talk) 19:38, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

They are separate countries. Do they have the same NOC? Please stay on topic. --IIIraute (talk) 19:40, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Presumably one of them will survive and be the "West Germany" equivalent...
On topic: What is the topic. You have not made a case for changing how Germany is reported in the article. Do you want to delete the article? If so I would oppose based on pillars 1 and 5. I think having this data presented here is good for Wikipedia (in its specialised sports encyclopedia and almanac role), and the most sensible (not to mention politically neutral) way to gather it is a primary source database. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 20:03, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Not correct, "West Germany" (The Federal Republic of Germany) already did have the same NOC (as the German Empire, Weimar Republic, Third Reich) prior reunification. It was not a matter of who would "survive". The GDR did found a separate NOC in 1951 - in 1968 it was recognized by IOC. According to international law, the Federal Republic of Germany is the same country, i.e. the successor state to the German Empire, Weimar Republic, Third Reich - again, also prior reunification.

On topic: The "five pillars" are a guideline, however there are WP policies to follow. Especially in a dispute. The neutrality and independence of this article is disputed. The IOC is not an independent, third-party source, nor should the IOC have "full authority" over this article, or how this article is structured, or any other "Olympic Games" related article. The primary source data used must be referenced to secondary sources - also, more "non-primary" sources must be added to this and other articles. IOC primary source data does certainly not have preference over other reliable WP:RS. Olympic Games related articles are to be treated just like any other WP article → Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). --IIIraute (talk) 20:51, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

The IOC has no authority over this article. The IOC has complete authority our the Olympic Games, and this leads ipso facto to "their view" being presented in the table. "Minority views" are indicated by having footnotes at contentious entries as including them in the table directly would make the table unreadable. A more complete explanation of these can be found in the articles for these cases (links available in the table). 85.167.111.116 (talk) 21:24, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

And Kim Jong-un has complete authority over North Korea, "and this leads ipso facto to "his view"" over the WP article on North Korea, or what - so what's your point? --IIIraute (talk) 21:31, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

No, but we're hardly talking about the article on the International Olympic Committee where the IOC would have an agenda. We are talking about a results database. My point is that official results are facts, other results are incorrect. For as long as the Tour de France organisers listed Lance Armstrong as a Tour de France winner we did too. We kept his Olympic medal until the IOC disqualified him at a later date. Bernhoff Hansen officially competed for the US until the IOC says otherwise, even though he was a Norwegian citizen at the time. A number of people competed for Mixed teams; per the IOC they are not listed for their nations. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 22:26, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Your point is not valid. The IOC does not pulish any official tables. Apart from that, it doesn't even matter, because IOC primary source data does certainly not have preference over other reliable WP:RS. We can't check this data. Other sources do. I don't know the intentions of the IOC - however I do know that the IOC is an organization generating billions US$ in revenue through sponsorship, ticketing and licensing programs during the Olympic quadrennium and as such has been involved in several controversies and scandals. That's why the WP primarily relies on independent third-party sources. Period. --IIIraute (talk) 22:40, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

They do publish official results. You may have a case for deleting this article as synthesis (though I would oppose), but not for changing it85.167.111.116 (talk) 22:48, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I do. This article is about an "All-time Olympic Games medal table" and there are lots of independent third-party WP:RS published on this subject. Best thing about it: No analysis of primary-source material, or synthetic claims necessary. I can't really see why these sources should be "banned" from this article - especially since not using them is not only in strict violation with several WP policies - but also with this whole article currently being based on a violation of WP:RS. Funny to see you opt for a version that favours primary source analysis and synth instead of a version that is backed by WP:RS, in particular when there are reliable and independent secondary-sources available. --IIIraute (talk) 23:04, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

You seem to be very hostile and uncompromising, IIIraute, calling editors "robots" in your edit summaries and saying "Your point is not valid". This is no way to hold a discussion, just repeating the same statement, essentially saying "My way or the highway". Jmj713 (talk) 03:13, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

"Uncompromising"? I am the one opting for a version that is backed by various WP:RS, while the two of you are defending primary source analysis and synth, using one single primary source, violating WP:RS and several other WP policies. Please don't clutch at straws and stay on topic. There are well explained WP policies to follow. There's no need to get personal, but that applies to you, too. No offence!--IIIraute (talk) 03:40, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Please carefully read WP:PRIMARYNOTBAD to see that we can and should use IOC's database, because we're only reporting verifiable facts. Otherwise a reader may become confused when certain details don't match official information, and for Olympics the ultimate authority is the IOC. Jmj713 (talk) 08:10, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Please be more carefull when making such statements. To begin with WP:PRIMARYNOTBAD doesn't make any such claims. While it is allowed, or sometimes even recommended to use primary sources, editors are not permitted to base an entire article on primary sources - the data used must be referenced to secondary sources. It also doesn't change the fact that this article is based on primary source analysis and synthesis. While "some" use of primary sources is allowed - analysis and synthesis of this material, are not. It certainly also doesn't justify the exclusion of other reliable and independent third-party sources. Please also note, that the IOC does not publish any "official" tables - not "all-time", nor per "single Games". The IOC is not the direct source for this table, instead lots of primary-source IOC data is taken and transformed into this article. If the IOC wanted an "all-time medal table", they would probably publish one - wouldn't they - whether "official" or "unofficial" - but the do not. However there are reliable and independent secondary-sources available that do publish an "all-time medal table". No violation of WP policies - no primary source analysis and synth necessary - just the use of third-party WP:RS. It is also worth mentioning that this and other Olympic Games related articles "used" to be based on those principles - reciting various sources - before they were "cleansed, roboted, forced into line, or whatever" - You name it!

All this table does is tabulate available data. Math is allowed. Jmj713 (talk) 14:11, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

It is not just "math" - it is primary source analysis and synthesis of an "unofficial" source! and it is also not permitted to base an entire article on primary sources and to exclude all other WP:RS, especially not when they make your "mathematic primary source analysis and synthesis" completely unnecessary. --IIIraute (talk) 14:20, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the table is pure math, and can be replicated by anyone with a calculator. But what if your secondary sources conflict with the official information, thus confusing the reader, perhaps making the reader distrust the article? I wouldn't be against adding a separate table of a merged Germany, for instance, in order to discuss how some sources do perhaps combine some NOC's against IOC standards, but the main table should remain the same just as you should return the table I added to Germany at the Olympics. Jmj713 (talk) 14:30, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

No, it is analysis and synthesis of an "unofficial" primary-source, "transforming, and modeling data with the goal of highlighting useful information", such as "medal totals" and "all-time rankings", making it possible to "display" single-results, combined, as a whole - in various styles. The entire article is based on "one" primary source and excludes all other WP:RS - violating several WP policies. The article (and medal table) also claim to be based on IOC country codes, yet the "unofficial" IOC single Games medal table doesn't support such a claim, for example → [1]. It clearly states: "National Olympic Committees > Germany" - no country-code cited. There is so much primary-source analysis and synthesis in this table/article! --IIIraute (talk) 15:00, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

So while you're on that page maybe you could point to where I would see Germany's medals between 1956 and 1988 in the Olympic medals box below that. Jmj713 (talk) 15:07, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

That's not the point - please stay on topic. Choose any other country, France → [2], for example.--IIIraute (talk) 15:15, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

IOC country codes

"The results are attributed to the IOC country code as currently displayed by the IOC database."

The article (and medal table) claim to be based on IOC country codes, yet the given IOC database doesn't support such a claim, for example → [3]. It clearly states: "National Olympic Committees > Germany" - no country-code cited.--IIIraute (talk) 14:35, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Not true, the results database clearly lists country codes. Also, see this document, pages 94-95. Jmj713 (talk) 15:03, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

No, it does not. The table is based on the link I have given - where in that link does it cite a coutry-code - please show.--IIIraute (talk) 15:07, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

What do you mean "it does not"? It quite plainly does. You must be looking in the wrong place. Also, as is the nature of the Internet, websites often change, but here's a backup of another list of country codes referred to in the table. Jmj713 (talk) 15:13, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

No, follow this: France [4] → Home > National Olympic Committees > France → Olympic Medals → Olympic Summer Games -- where is the country-code? The medals-table shows no country-code. Identity Card: no country-code. The second source this document does list country-codes, but does not list medals.--IIIraute (talk) 15:25, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

What about this? If you were really interested in NPOV, you'd try to find sources rather than do this. By the way, you'll also note the IOC's statement that "the results that we publish are official and are taken from the "Official Report" - a document published for each Olympic Games by the Organising Committee". The IOC, therefore, is a secondary source. Jmj713 (talk) 15:28, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

The same source states: "The International Olympic Committee (IOC) does not recognise global ranking per country". --IIIraute (talk) 15:51, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

...yes, I know- but it is fuc.... analysis and synthesis to prove your original primary-source - are you not getting it? You are patching it all together - it is not in the unofficial IOC medal-table source that "requires simple math". --IIIraute (talk) 15:36, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand. I've provided numerous official sources. These were used to simply add numbers. 10+10=20 is not analysis or synthesis. Jmj713 (talk) 15:40, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Where is the IOC single Games medal table that is used as basis for this article showing the IOC country-codes?--IIIraute (talk) 15:44, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Didn't you see the link above? This is just one example: http://web.archive.org/web/20090817084336/http://www.olympic.org/uk/games/past/table_uk.asp?OLGT=1&OLGY=1992 Jmj713 (talk) 15:50, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Really! They are "official" results and are taken from the "Official Report" - but the source is not the IOC. → "The International Olympic Committee (IOC) does not recognise global ranking per country; the medal tables are displayed for information only." Please show me the IOC single Games medal table that is used as basis for this article showing the IOC country-codes? --IIIraute (talk) 15:54, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. Which is what this article, is information. So the table you see is presented by the OC via the IOC, so via a secondary source, thus this entire conversation is moot. Plus, we don't need to have data in a table format in order to put it in a table format, following simple math. Jmj713 (talk) 15:58, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

That shows that the whole article/table is based on false claims and www.olympic.org[5] is not the source the table can be based on. So now that we have secondary sources such as the OC, the DOSB, being part of the IOC is an equivalent source. --IIIraute (talk) 16:05, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

P.S. let me correct myself - I doubt that the OC is an independent third-party source. It also doesn't change the fact that the claim "The results are attributed to the IOC country code as currently displayed by the IOC database." is not correct. Where is the IOC single Games medal table that is used as basis for this article showing the IOC country-codes? (→ "The International Olympic Committee (IOC) does not recognise global ranking per country; the medal tables are displayed for information only.")--IIIraute (talk) 16:13, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

You can browse the IOC database freely right now and verify for yourself: http://www.olympic.org/olympic-results?games=146885&athletename=&category=&sport=&event=&mengender=false&womengender=false&mixedgender=false&teamclassification=false&individualclassification=false&continent=&country=&goldmedal=false&silvermedal=false&bronzemedal=false&targetresults=true And the table at the above link is provided by the IOC, I'm not I'm following. Jmj713 (talk) 16:16, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

(ec)...if it is provided by the IOC, it is a non-independent primary source - but it is not - it is privided by the OC which is part of the IOC, just as the DOSB is. (still a primary source)--IIIraute (talk) 16:30, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

My point! It is not the single Games medal table that is used as basis for this article (claiming to show the IOC country-codes) Do you now want to tally up every single result of every single category and discipline? Even if (what certainly would imply analysis) - it doesn't change the fact that the table is not based on the "single Games medal table" as displayed at www.olympic.org[6]. Fact.--IIIraute (talk) 16:30, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

It just appears that since this article was created the olympic.org site was restructured. The data was organized differently. You can still access the official IOC per-Games tables here: http://www.london2012.com/medals/historical-medals/editionyear=1972/index.html Jmj713 (talk) 16:55, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

...well, that's not really it - is it? (2007-2012 The London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games Limited) --IIIraute (talk) 17:04, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Not really what? It's an official Olympics website. Jmj713 (talk) 17:15, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

No, it is not the IOC - it is the "2007-2012 The London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games Limited". Doesn't even exist anymore - website only. (→ "The International Olympic Committee (IOC) does not recognise global ranking per country; the medal tables are displayed for information only.") remember? --IIIraute (talk) 17:18, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

reminder, for discussion above ↑

Primary source data that is published by the official source, and isn't used for analysis (data-analysis, meta-analysis) or any other synthetic claims, but simply as being part of an "official" single medallist results database - is still a primary source (similar to "single-entry accounting"). An official source, that publishes single entry data results of all "single" medals ever won, is a primary source. It is not a "meta-analysis" → [7] that refers to "methods focused on contrasting and combining results from different studies, in the hope of identifying patterns among study results, sources of disagreement among those results, or other interesting relationships that may come to light in the context of multiple studies." That's exactly what the IOC does not want. The official results are only published per olympic medallists. → All the Medallists since 1896 [8] Analysis or meta-analysis of the data contradicts the Olympic Charter. The IOC also does not publish an official "all-time" Olympic medal table and publishes only "unofficial" medal tables during the Olympics themselves.[9] And even that is not done by the IOC, but the OCOG (which is a private company), as the IOC does not recognise any global ranking per country. → "The IOC and the OCOG shall not draw up any global ranking per country. A roll of honour bearing the names of medal winners and those awarded diplomas in each event shall be established by the OCOG and the names of the medal winners shall be featured prominently and be on permanent display in the main stadium." Roll of Honour, Olympic Charter, p.90 [10]

Somehow, it is also funny that this table is based on an official source, that strictly opposes such tables being made → Olympic Charter.

The OCOG - for the London 2012 Olympics the LOCOG, for example - is a private company that executes the Olympic Games for the IOC: "The London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games Limited (“LOCOG”) is a private company and is not subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2000." [11]. At the end of the Games the official single results are published in an "Official Results Book", for example → [12], and the country-codes/NOCs in the "Official Report" - a document published for each Olympic Games by the Organising Committee (OCOG)→ [13].

In case for the "Official Reports" being used as a source, I would like to put emphasis on the fact that for the Federal Republic of Germany the country-code "GER" was used - and not "FRG" → for example: 1972 Munich, Oficial Report, Volume 3, p. 15 [14]. The reason for this is that the country-code was changed in hinsight for the current IOC database - the pre-1990 Federal Republic of Germany did compete with the country-code "GER" - and so does the post-1990 Federal Repulic of Germany.

Since the IOC does only publish single medallist results (which is also clearly stated in the lead of this article: "The IOC itself does not publish all-time tables, and publishes unofficial tables only per single Games. This table was thus compiled by adding up single entries from the IOC database"), do you really want to tell me that counting up roughly 18.000 medals is "only math"? It certainly is analysis (data analysis) and synthesis of a primary-source, "transforming, and modeling data with the goal of highlighting useful information", such as "medal totals" and "all-time rankings", making it possible to "display" single-results, combined, as a whole - in various styles, and therefore in violation with WP:RS.

The entire article is based on IOC data. While it is allowed, or sometimes even recommended to use primary sources, editors are not permitted to base an entire article on primary sources - the data used must be referenced to secondary sources → WP:RS → therefore, the neutrality and independence of this article is disputed. Using just "one" primary source doesn't make it better. The data used must be referenced to secondary sources. More "non-primary", i.e. secondary- and, to a lesser extent, tertiary sources must be added to this article. Although the IOC does publish official single medallist results, it certainly also doesn't justify the exclusion of other reliable and independent third-party sources → WP:NPOV. If the IOC wanted an "all-time medal table", they would probably publish one - whether "official" or "unofficial" - but the IOC does not. However there are reliable and independent secondary-sources available that do publish an "all-time medal table" - usually based on one of the following: countries (according to International Law/geopolitical entity), NOCs, IOC country-codes, etc. Ergo: There are independent and reliable WP:RS available. Some, like the DOSB for example (being part of the IOC) do sort the table by NOCs, so does: http://www.olympicsuniverse.com/ → All Time Olympics Medal Table [15], but there are also other examples how to sort the table: Sport History Expert, Prof. Wolfgang Behringer (University of Bonn, Max-Planck-Institute, University of Munich, University of York, Saarland University) Wolfgang Behringer, "Kulturgeschichte des Sports: Vom antiken Olympia bis zur Gegenwart", C. H. Beck, Munich, 2012 p. 387 [16], or CNNs' All-Time Medal Table 1896 - 2012 [17] & the BBC [18], or http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics, etc..

Even "if" the IOC was a first-party-secondary source (what it isn't), the article is still based on "one" first-party non-independent source.

Articles with a single source: → Copyright violations: "If an article has just one source, it may be an exact copy of the source provided, or a derivative work of that source, and therefore a copyright violation; mere paraphrasing, without sufficient originality, may not be enough to avoid copyright infringement.":

"This Site is owned by the IOC. Unless otherwise indicated, all of the content featured or displayed on this Site, including, but not limited to, text, graphics, data, photographic images, moving images, sound, illustrations, software, and the selection and arrangement thereof ("IOC Content"), is owned by the IOC, its licensors, or its third-party image partners and all rights are reserved. All elements of the Site, including the IOC Content, are protected by copyright, trade dress, moral rights, trademark and other laws relating to the protection of intellectual property." (© Copyright 2012. All rights reserved.)

Additionally, the article might also be in conflict with "lone source published by the article's subject". → "In some cases, information may be taken from a self-published source after notability has been established." but "An article that relies entirely on information from the subject itself should be deleted, possibly under speedy deletion criteria G11."

⇒Side note: Did the WP acquire the right for the use of the Olympic Rings? → "The Olympic rings are the exclusive property of the International Olympic Committee (IOC). The Olympic rings are protected around the world in the name of the IOC by trademarks or national legislations and cannot be used without the IOC's prior written consent." Olympic Charter: Chapter 1, Rules 7-14 and its Bye-law, p. 19-27 [19] - If not, I think it can be done. --IIIraute (talk) 18:54, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

You seem to be missing the fact that this table is just a compilation of other per-Games table, such as 1992 Winter Olympics medal table. Also, participation tables like at Ethiopia at the Olympics, for example, are also based simply on tabulating available data. So, this is again just math. You can make lists and tables of like things, it's okay. We have all sorts of lists on Wikipedia. This is no different. Jmj713 (talk) 20:04, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

This article gives the IOC as source - also: a WP article can not use another WP article as a source. It is quite funny how you want to base the "XY-Country"-at the Olympic articles on this IOC-based "all-time table" (as per your previous argument) - and now the "all-time table" on the various "XY-Country"-at the Olympic articles. Read more carefully what I have pointed out above - the article has several problems.--IIIraute (talk) 20:14, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm not seeing anything wrong with this article and as indicated above I wouldn't mind a new section being added that would explain and display some combinations of various teams. Jmj713 (talk) 20:39, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

I have made quite clear "what is wrong with this article" - it violates several WP policies - please take the time to read the points I have raised more carefully and you will understand. As a result, this article currently has no source it is based on - nor do all the other "XY-Country"-at the Olympic tables - at least as long you are trying to use "official" IOC primary-source data as single source for the articles involved. If we cannot solve this problem here, there are other WP instruments to get this done. I do not intend to repeat myself constantly. --IIIraute (talk) 21:00, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

I thought we had settled this point and I thought a compromise would have been reached a the new explanatory section. Similarly, you can take a look at List of Stanley Cup champions, which is a Featured list, and it includes a table of appearances, which, like this table, is just math. Jmj713 (talk) 21:20, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

No, it certainly is not "just math" - and also is not the only policy that is violated - as thoroughly explained above. Please do not refer to other, or similar WP articles (if they are based on "one" source, primary-source analysis, etc.) violating WP:RS - it only makes it worse. --IIIraute (talk) 21:35, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

⇒⇒ For the avoidance of doubt: I did not intend this section to be a new forum for discussion, but as indicator for trying to find a solution in the section above. Thank you. ⇐⇐ --IIIraute (talk) 21:35, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

For your legal side note: File:Olympic Rings.svg: "This image is in the public domain in the United States. In most cases, this means that it was first published prior to January 1, 1923." It's still trademarked, but I don't think the use on this page can be seen as problematic. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 23:10, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Stripped/revoked medal table

I think a valuable addition, or as a separate article, would be a table or list of all-time medals stripped or revoked for various reasons. Are there any comprehensive sources for this? Jmj713 (talk) 17:37, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Probably best as a section here. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 17:56, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

compromise discussion

I think it has all been said. The whole medals table is based on false "IOC" claims (which of course the IOC has never made, because → "The International Olympic Committee (IOC) does not recognise global ranking per country"), involves primary source analysis, is based on only "one" primary source (but then it isn't really) - therefore in violation with WP:RS, the coutry-code stuff isn't right, etc, etc.. Time to negotiate for a rather comprehensive compromise. --IIIraute (talk) 17:50, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

You want a reliable secondary source? How about http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics? They combine the GER and EUA totals, but FRG and GDR (1968–1988) are distinctly separate. That would be appropriate here, in my opinion. And the content providers for that website are very reliable indeed. (See http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/about/sources.html). — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:19, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't want to combine GER and EUA, because that's going to be against the IOC database, as well as just the fact that it was a union of two separate teams, like the 1992 post-Soviet unified team, which isn't combined with its predecessor, the Soviet Union. Jmj713 (talk) 18:26, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

gosh, how often?? the Russian NOC was founded in 1989 - UDSSR & Russia are not the same country.--IIIraute (talk) 18:34, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm talking about the USSR (predecessor) and the EUN (1992 post-USSR Unified Team) - same situation as GER and EUA. Jmj713 (talk) 18:38, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

GER + FRG = same country, same NOC.--IIIraute (talk) 18:41, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm talking about GER (1896-1952) and EUA (1956-1964). Same situation as URS (1952-1988) and EUN (1992). Going from a unified state to a combined team of states. Jmj713 (talk) 18:46, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

I know, I was suggesting FRG+GER same NOC, however EUA and SAAR also belong to this NOC. Even the GDR NOC was incorporated in 1990 [20]--IIIraute (talk) 18:53, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Why not add an extra line, Germany combined, same NOC → DOSB as source + footnote.--IIIraute (talk) 18:29, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

As I said earlier, I'm not against a separate table below the main table with combined totals. Feel free to add it, if you wish. At the bottom of this article where there references are there's already a note that some sources combine totals. A table could be added there, I think. Jmj713 (talk) 18:32, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

No, extra line in the same table.--IIIraute (talk) 18:37, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

You can't add the line to the same table as that will disrupt sorting and totals for every team. If you will be adding combined teams based on nationality to this table, you can't just pick and choose Germany, you'll have to combine other nationalities, and that will become very tricky quickly. So if it can be done, it's probably as a separate table, but arbitrarily combining some results and not combining others seems like OR to me. Jmj713 (talk) 18:39, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

no, not if done per same NOC. GER+FRG combined.--IIIraute (talk) 18:45, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

There is no unbiased WP:RS that does that. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 19:20, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

No unbiased WP:RS that sorts the table per NOC? Isn't it the most unbiased solution to sort the table by NOCs. The DOSB, for example (being part of the IOC) does list GER and FRG together, and so does http://www.olympicsuniverse.com/ → All Time Olympics Medal Table [21], or

Sport History Expert, Prof. Wolfgang Behringer (University of Bonn, Max-Planck-Institute, University of Munich, University of York, Saarland University) Wolfgang Behringer, "Kulturgeschichte des Sports: Vom antiken Olympia bis zur Gegenwart", C. H. Beck, Munich, 2012 p. 387 [22], or

CNNs' All-Time Medal Table 1896 - 2012 [23] & the BBC [24], or

www.olympiastatistik.de [25] → Statistik → Ewige Tabellen → chose: Ewiger Medaillenspiegel Sommerspiele (not directly per NOC, but also a solution). --IIIraute (talk) 22:43, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

By the way, we already have a table which does something similar. See: List of participating nations at the Summer Olympic Games and List of participating nations at the Winter Olympic Games. Medal totals could probably also be added and combined, for all the indented participants. Jmj713 (talk) 19:06, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

OK, that's a beginning - however the German NOC was not "superseded or preceded by other NOC(s) during these years". GER and FRG (+ EUA) always had the same NOC → [26], since its foundation in 1895. --IIIraute (talk) 19:17, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Please, no. Those tables are wide enough already, adding extra columns would make those pages much too unwieldly. That's why they were created as distinct articles in the first place. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 19:20, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Proposed new section

I propose that a new section is added to the article. The purpose of this section will be to present the various ways the few contentious entries (including, but not limited to, Germany) are dealt with in various sources. This will serve the additional purpose of introducing third party sources, thereby alleviating IIIraute's valid concern that the article in its entirety is based on a first party secondary (it's technically not a primary) source, while leaving the official version in the main table (which does not violate any policies), so long as the article has independent sources to demonstrate notability. The additional sourcing will suffice for this purpose, though notability has not been disputed. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 17:29, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I do support that. This section can then be referred to in the Germany at the Olympics article, and the table reinstated. Jmj713 (talk) 19:18, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

"First party secondary" is not correct - please see below ↓↓. Although I do not oppose such a solution "per se", that's not enough. What about putting the GER, FRG, and GDR columns together in the original table - maybe that disturbes the aphabetical order, but that wouldn't be so bad.--IIIraute (talk) 18:55, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

I take it you mean that "the table is pre-sorted by the name of each Olympic Committee" should be amended to include something akin to "except for historical teams which are placed below to the relevant modern team". In that case I agree. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 17:38, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Done. It was already implemented for YUG+IOP and URS+EUN, as well as by alphabetical serendipity for RUS+RU1. I haven't touched cases with multiple or no modern equivalents. They can be kept alphabetically or grouped at the bottom as in the no-medals group. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 17:54, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I have also started the new section. As far as I know GER+EUA (Sports Reference), GER+EUA+FRG (CNN, link above) and GER+EUA+FRG+GDR (BBC, link above) exist. For Russia, I know RUS+RU1. From the olympiastatistik.de link above I also found RUS+RU1+URS+EUN. URS+EUN may exist, possibly odder combos. I haven't added this because I am unsure how to present it. Presumably tables will be needed. Don't know other cases: AUS+ANZ, JAM+BWI, CZE+TCH and (YUG+IOP)+(SCG+SRB) seems plausible, as do NOCs claiming ZZX medals. Remove the "one source" tag when you're done. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 22:56, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I am happy with that. Thanks for doing the tables. --IIIraute (talk) 18:26, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Why are Soviet Union and Russia separated?

What does the Olympic games that one country participates too, have to do with the country's name changes? It's still the same country — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.233.90.17 (talk) 14:39, 3 July 2013‎ (UTC)

The Soviet Union was composed of not only Russia, but the Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Moldova, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Armenia, Georgia, Kyrgyzstan, and Azerbaijan. They are not the same country. Czolgolz (talk) 01:33, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Deutsches Reich

Is it missing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.54.37.47 (talk) 23:04, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

no - it is part of the Germany medal count 109.192.146.247 (talk) 08:20, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Sochi Medals

So when are we going to add the medals won in Sochi? That games ended today, so we should probably put them up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.138.148.222 (talk) 04:35, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

They're already up.Czolgolz (talk) 04:42, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Australia has been to every Summer Olympics

Hi,

Just wanted to bring your attention to an error in your all time medals table. Australia has been at every Summer Olympics (27 in total), whereas your table has them at 25. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.64.30.174 (talk) 05:54, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Australia has been at 25 Summer Olympics as Australia and at 2 Summer Olympics as Australazia. Nitobus (talk) 15:20, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Because of Australia's status at the time, even their participation in the 1896 and 1900 games are debatable. 1904 was the first time they competed as representing the Commonwealth of Australia. Bottom line though, the IOC recognized their participation in those early games (and apparently the NOC name and the IOC code (AUS) were the same for 1896-1904, 1920-present) so those years are all counted. On the other hand, 1908 and 1912 are instead counted as Australasia (ANZ), as already pointed out, Australia and New Zealand competing jointly in those years. --RacerX¹¹ Talk to me^{Stalk me} 02:19, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Canada at the 1964 Winter Olympics

Hi, Canada has since 2014 at the 1694 Winter OG: 1 Gold, 1 Silber and 1 Bronze, see: [27]. So I make the respective modifications in all the articles, please don't undo it. Leonprimer (talk) 18:59, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

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PROBLEM WITH SILVER MEDALS

Hi. The silver medal count of all countries and NOC's is not "4.775", but 4.773 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexiscorreia (talk • contribs) 10:41, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Updates during Games

It looks as if we are suffering from the usual problem, with numerous editors adding odd medals to nations' totals as they are won during the Games. Obviously this doesn't give any way of keeping track of what has been added and what hasn't. The preamble says the totals are as of the end of the 2014 Winter Games, and that is how it ought to be until we have a clean set of new totals to add at the end of the current Games. --David Biddulph (talk) 21:43, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Mismatch with IOC website

There is a mismatch between this All-time table and the total you can "manually" get summing up the Official IOC website pages per country.

The mismatch is only about 1984, 1988, 1992 and affects the single medal table pages (eg. this one for 1988) vs the IOC webpages.

Take Australia in Seoul 1988: the IOC website reports 4 gold medals, 6 silver 6 bronze, while the wikipedia page (and all of the other websites, indeed) are reporting 3 gold, 6 silver, 5 bronze. The problem is roughly the same with many other countries. Italy has 6-5-5 on the IOC website and 6-4-4 in Wikipedia and elsewhere.

It's as if the IOC website is adding extra-medals for 1984, 1988, 1992.

Please forgive me if you have covered this before, but I couldn't find a title in the archive index which sounds related.

Euforbio (talk) 04:07, 9 August 2016 (UTC) Euforbio (talk) 04:08, 9 August 2016 (UTC)Euforbio aug 9, 2016 6:01 AM CET

IOC website is adding extra-medals for demonstration sports.Nitobus (talk) 07:01, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you very much! But shouldn't be the IOC website the only "official" source for this count?

Euforbio (talk) 12:04, 9 August 2016 (UTC) Euforbio

Sortable chart

In the table, why are some columns sortable and some not? Makes no sense. For example, the numbers of gold/silver/bronze medals at the Summer games are not sortable. And the numbers of gold/silver/bronze medals at the Winter games are not sortable. But, the total numbers of gold/silver/bronze medals (that is, at the Summer games and Winter games combined) are sortable. Why is this? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:59, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

They are sortable, or at least are so in my browser (Google Chrome), though the arrows don't appear. If I hover over the top cell however, a tooltip appears showing they're sortable. - Chrism would like to hear from you 20:46, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

OK. Thanks. Yes, that's correct. So, I will re-phrase the question. Why do some sortable columns have the arrows visible? And some not? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 07:33, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Fixed with edit summary: "replace background with background-color in header cells to make sort arrows visible per Help:Sorting#Background colors in sortable headers".[28] PrimeHunter (talk) 23:25, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

@PrimeHunter: Thanks. Are you sure? It does not look any different to me. It still looks like it did, when I posted the original question. Some columns have arrows, some don't. What's going on? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:05, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Time correction

At the top, the text under the picture says that the medal system we use today wasn't implemented until 1912, but this is wrong. It was in 1904 at the Missouri games that this started. Sarcusdarc (talk) 05:20, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 August 2016

Puerto Rico won a gold medal on August 13th 2016 Rio Olympics with tennis player Monica Puig. Not updated on table.

WillOz (talk) 16:08, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

The all time medal table will not be updated until after the 2016 Olympics are over, to avoid confusion. Czolgolz (talk) 16:10, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

As it clearly states at the top,the table is "from 1896 to 2014" - we wait until the end to try and stop multiple additions of the same medal. - Arjayay (talk) 16:38, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Total Medal Count

The combined total medal count in the chart with team medals appears to be incorrect. Please see Togo, the individual and total medals for summer games, 1 bronze medal, and the individual and total medals for winter games, zero medals, does not equal the individual and total medals for the combined total games, 1 gold medal, 3 silver medals and 1 bronze medal. 50.247.157.124 (talk) 17:45, 10 August 2016 (UTC) B. Osher

The medal count for the U.S. is wrong. According to https://www.olympic.org/united-states-of-america The medal count should be: Summer - Gold 975, Silver 763, Bronze 673, Total 2411

                                              Winter - Gold 96, Silver 103, Bronze 88, Total 287
                                              Combined - Gold 1071, Silver 866, Bronze 761, Total 2698

These totals do NOT include the Rio games. Myth420 (talk) 12:53, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Use of comma

On the chart, I placed a comma in numbers that are bigger than 999. It makes the number easier to read. For example, the number 3487 is harder to read; while 3,487 is easier to read. All of my comma insertions were removed. Why? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:38, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Phelps in the Country List

Should Phelps be in the team list? While his achievement dwarfs most countries, I don't think he is considered his own team. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.233.49 (talk) 03:10, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

No. He is not a country. He needs to be removed. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:12, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Theres a few media outlets that have made the comparison, and, well... helpful editors like to help Timeoin (talk) 23:44, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Discrepancies when it comes to medals of successor countries

For example all medals taken by Yugoslavia (up to 1988) legally belong to Serbia as Serbia is successor of Yugoslavia. But here we can see that this is not presented as such. I am not interested (for now) to change it by myself but would like to point that out for people who created this charts. Successor countries are "owners" of these medals, legally this is clear and here it is presented as separate countries while it is well known to whom they belong... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Goxy63 (talk • contribs) 01:40, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Why is Serbia the successor of Yugoslavia? What about Montenegro, Bosnia, Slovenia, Macedonia, Croatia and Kosovo? Czolgolz (talk) 01:51, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Well this has always been debatable (see Succesion of States). Nevertheless USSR/Russia should be one entity, even in security council this stands valid, why not in here.--Κλειδοκράτωρ (talk) 01:06, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

There are athletes from the Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Georgia, Kyrgyzstan and Armenia who might disagree with your assertion that they contributed nothing during the Soviet years. Czolgolz (talk) 01:11, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

New table header submitted for approval, comments etc..

	Summer	Winter	Combined Total
Team (IOC code)	№				Total	№				Total	№				Total
Afghanistan (AFG)	13	0	0	2	2	0	0	0	0	0	13	0	0	2	2
Algeria (ALG)	12	5	2	8	15	3	0	0	0	0	15	5	2	8	15
Argentina (ARG)	23	18	24	28	70	18	0	0	0	0	41	18	24	28	70
Armenia (ARM)	5	1	2	9	12	6	0	0	0	0	11	1	2	9	12
Totals	27	4814	4784	5139	14737	22	959	958	948	2865	49	5773	5742	6087	17602

• • Much better "page" fit is the goal, happy to abide by consensus.

The Original Filfi (talk) 07:11, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

I like this new proposed setup. However, I would keep the background color coding consistent. In other words, have the cell entry for "Summer" listed with that yellow background; have the cell entry for "Winter" listed with that blue background; etc. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:34, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Also, the word "total" can be spelled out in full; no need to abbreviate to "Tot.". Finally, the very last column (Grand Total) should look like the others (called "Total", not "Grand Total"). Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:35, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Joseph A. Spadaro V2 for a view.The Original Filfi (talk) 05:49, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

@The Original Filfi: Yes, perfect. I like it! Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 07:14, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Refugee Olympic Team

I have included the Refugee Olympic Team (ROT) under NOCs without medals. I have listed them as a historic team, as there are no official plans for them to return to future Olympics (let's hope there's no need). Anyone have an opinion on this? Czolgolz (talk) 02:54, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

• Do we have a source? My opinion is as per two topics above, list it if we have a source (hopefully IOC), we should list as they do and have inclusion notes (rather than exclusions), i.e. the numbers absolutely match, in this case the ROT has a participation of 1 only and no medals, (assuming Czolgolz is correct above, in that they did not win a medal) sorry for all the brackets.

The Original Filfi (talk) 07:24, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

U.S. medal count

The medal count for the U.S. is wrong. According to https://www.olympic.org/united-states-of-america The medal count should be: Summer - Gold 975, Silver 763, Bronze 673, Total 2411. Winter - Gold 96, Silver 103, Bronze 88, Total 287. Combined - Gold 1071, Silver 866, Bronze 761, Total 2698. These totals do NOT include the Rio games. Myth420 (talk) 12:55, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

In the absence of any further comments I suggest we update with the source. --Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 08:26, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Super Nintendo Chalmers the numbers above are 100% correct for the current way of categorising by the IOC, the table here has deliberate exclusions notated in the notes and those medals are counted elsewhere, New Zealand short a few too! I suppose a quick discussion re best way to present the information and tying it to sources could resolve this.

1. IOC is the source
2. Our table numbers should match
3. Add notes to say include rather than exclude
4. Keep the totals equal to medals awarded.
5. Leave "defunct" competing entities e.g. Australasia and add notes i.e. "included elsewhere and not in total" or similar

Thoughts?

The Original Filfi (talk) 09:47, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I think we're better sourcing what the IOC says and then adding notes as to explain discrepancies with other sources. But I'm not heavily involved in this page, I'm sure there's others here who might want to comment? --Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 08:19, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

IOA/IOP

I am thinking that the IOA and IOP teams should be combined. If you go to the IOA page (Individual Athletes...) it is actually called 'Independent Olympians at the Olympic Games' (redirected from 'Individual Athletes...') and states that the team participated in 4 summer and 1 winter games, under an inconsistent name. It also claims both the IOA and the IOP code. In which case, the two articles probably need combining as well. What do people think?

Summer Games Independent Olympic Participants (1992) Individual Olympic Athletes (2000) Independent Olympic Athletes (2012) Independent Olympic Athletes (2016) Winter Games Independent Olympic Participants (2014)

Secondly, the table shows IOA (3 summer, 0 winter) and IOP (1 summer, 0 winter). The IOA/IOP competed in the 2014 Winter Olympics due to the suspension of the Indian IOC; however, after one person competed the decision was reversed and the remaining Indian athletes compete as 'India', so it's all very confusing. This table credits India with the appearance and not the IOA/IOP... perhaps the IOA page needs adjusting for this point? Or should it be counted here as both an India and IOA/IOP participation? Bs1jac (talk) 08:50, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

I was just about to ask this question lol. I agree that IOA and IOP should be merged in the table since they serve the exact same purpose (representing people who's NOC is unable to participate) and seem to be used interchangeably (with IOP in 1992, then IOA until 2014, IOP in 2014, and IOA again in 2016). They seemed to be combined under the article Independent Olympians at the Olympic Games already so it might as well be done here too.

As for the India thing, 1 athlete participated as an independent and 2 as India. So imo both NOCs should get credited with the appearance Dukebox (talk) 11:23, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Agreed with Dukebox. --Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 11:43, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

They should not be merged. If we will merge IOA and IOP, then we must merge EUN (ex-USSR) with them. However they are different cases. IOP and EUN are specific cases related with the dissolving of countries. IOA is more general case, for all occasions. Nitobus (talk) 15:24, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

EUN and IOP competed as separate teams in the 1992 olympics. EUN is more akin to the ROT, which also competed separately from IOA. And India competed as IOP, not IOA, in the 2014 olympics, despite not desolving. Thus, it's clear that IOC uses these terms interchangeably. The full name for IOA has also been through a few variations, such as Individual Olympic Athletes in 2000 and Idependent Olympic Athletes in 2012. Again, it's clear to see that IOA and IOP are used for the same purpose and should be merged. Dukebox (talk) 00:27, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Has IOP only been used once (Yugoslavia 1992?). If so then I revert my previous claim - we should keep it separate. If IOP is used again in future we can always merge it in with IOA at that point. --Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 07:57, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Olympians_at_the_Olympic_Games, IOP was also used in 2014. As far as I am aware, IOA and IOP are used interchangeably and neither are purely for the dissolution of countries. EUN was a very specific team and is not comparable. IOA/IOP can and have been for multiple nation's athletes, from any part of the world based on national suspensions, etc. Really doesn't bother me, but I believe that IOP/IOA are inherently the same thing, whereas EUN is a specific 'Unified Team' for (some of) the former Soviet nations between the dissolution of the USSR and the founding of individual NOCs. Bs1jac (talk) 13:13, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

The problem is that the IOC uses different names for the same entity: I(ndividual)OA-2000, I(ndependent)OA-2012, IOP-2014; and the same name for different entities: IOP-1992 and IOP-2014. IOP-1992(exYugoslavia) is different from IOA-2000, IOA-2012, IOP-2014 and should not be merged with them.

Columns labeled №

Do the columns labeled № indicate the number of Olympic Games in which a country has participated? This is the only conclusion I could come to, and there doesn't seem to be an explanation anywhere on the page.—Laoris (talk) 03:00, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

• @User:Laoris updated hope this is better, comments thought etc.The Original Filfi (talk) 09:56, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Awesome, I think that makes it much clearer. Thanks! —Laoris (talk) 14:56, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Art contests

In the early years, the Olympics consisted of contests in art, music, literature, architecture, poetry, etc. And these winners were awarded gold, silver, and bronze medals. These medals are typically not counted in the official medal totals. Does this article mention this fact? I can't seem to find any mention. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:19, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

European Union section

I don't think having an EU section totalling medals of EU member states is a good idea:

• Whereas combined Olympic totals have been created by EU sources for some Games, no source is provided for the total or for the idea.
• The comparison between the EU (entering as a significant number of teams) and single teams is flawed because there are generally limits on the number of athletes that can compete in a given event per team.
• It is not clear what countries are included and when. For example, does the EU total include medals won before the countries concerned became EU members? What about former countries like Czechoslovakia and East Germany? What about the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia, which are currently partly in the EU and partly outside?

I suspect that this is WP:OR and thus have removed it.Kahastok talk 15:45, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Agree, there has never been an EU team. CMD (talk) 19:47, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Germany (GER) and Federal Republic of Germany (FRG)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Both countries are shown as different entities in the large overview table but politically refer to the same country, the "Federal Republic of Germany" (which exists since 23 May 1949 until today). Also, the Federal Republic of Germany is mentioned as "defunct nation" in the article, which is in this context not correct. The "variations" section tries to explain the different names of Germany but at least GER and FRG are one and the same nation and should be treated as such. --2A02:C7D:51E3:A900:AC71:B1C4:F5A7:A979 (talk) 18:50, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

I fully agree, just stumbled over this error. Not combining the results of the Federal Republic of Germany and the German Democratic Republic makes sense, but seperating the Federal Republic of Germany from itself or even calling it a "defunct nation", is completely nonsense. It looks like even the results of really defunct German predecessor states from 1896 to 1952 were counted under "Germany", while separating the results of the Federal Republic of Germany before and after 1990. This is just wrong on so many levels. --Tk2342 (talk) 16:31, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Would it be possible to amend this in the article accordingly (i.e. combine GER and FRG, which is one and the same nation) given that there seems to be an edit protection? --90.152.126.254 (talk) 11:15, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Any update on the amendment request or alternative views? Again, the current version is a misrepresentation since GER is the same country as FRG. This not only applies to the Olympics but also to football, where Germany (GER/FRG) has won four World Championships in 1954, 1974, 1990 and 2014 with the country seen as one and the same unit throughout the years. We must change it in the article/table to keep the high Wikipedia standards. --90.220.12.30 (talk) 11:57, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree with you! Why not make a List like in the German version of wikipedia?, already the Page "All-time Olympic Games medal table" in german language shows the reality of rankings.-LuigiPortaro29 (talk) 12:56, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

That would be an option. Although this is more straightforward for Germany than e.g. for the Russian Federation, which includes medals of the USSR in the German-WP table that could also haven been won by athletes e.g. from Estonia or Ukraine before the 1990s. --90.220.12.30 (talk) 14:00, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

I do not agree. Germany and West Germany had the official name of the Federal Republic og Germany, but it is incorrect to combine both from 1968 to 1988 Olympics. Doing that, we should fix all the sports pages. I think the best option, it is to keep the pattern: West Germany, East Germany, Germany and Unified Team of Germany as different teams — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alubini (talk • contribs) 00:44, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

I don't think there is a simple correct and wrong answer. Germany has competed as various political entities and the continuity of different versions is a matter for discussion which will get different opinions. Why does counting the German Empire and the current FRG together make more sense than combining pre- and post-reunification FRG or vice versa? The only unambiguous non-POV approach is to follow the IOC codes used. The medals were awarded to athletes competing under those codes. This approach can also be followed for all countries, with no requirement to make decisions on a case-by-case basis.   Jts1882 | talk  08:42, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

The IOC Codes have changed for a number of countries over time - Great Britain has, for instance, competed as GBR, GRB and GBI. The same goes for Germany, which had, in addition to the codes you mentioned, also competed as ALL/ALE in 1968 (see link). I personally think that we should use a politically correct categorisation as opposed to a labeling categorisation for this specific case. The German Olympic Sports Confederation, which exsists since 1895, has sent athletes competing as FRG and GER to the Olympics through the same organisational entity, the National Olympic Committee of Germany. It is hence less wrong to add up medals won by FRG and GER than separating the current FRG/GER from itself pre-1990 while combining post-1990 GER with the German Empire/Weimar Republic/Third Reich. --94.3.13.10 (talk) 09:55, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

According to the List of IOC country codes article the codes were not used until the 1956 winter games, which explains the instability of names from then until the late 1960s, and kills off my suggestion.   Jts1882 | talk  10:55, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Look at Olympic.org, they have united all codes used by Great Britain, but not for Germany. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 11:41, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Interestingly, the data shown on Germany is ambiguous. It mentions that the 1972 Summer Olympics have been held in GER, while only medals before 1952 and after 1992 are highlighted. Next to this, the German Olympic Committee is shown as "Recognised since 1895", while pages about medals won under the FRG, GDR and EUA IOC-Code are missing. That does not make sense at all in my point of view. FIFA may be subject to a lot of citicism these days but at least they get things right with regards to FRG = GER. --94.3.13.10 (talk) 11:56, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

The IOC website shows the medals won by Germany from 1896 to 1952, and then from 1992 to 2018. The medals won by West Germany, East Germany and Unified Team of Germany from 1952 to 1988 are not shown. So I think it is better to keep the pattern. https://www.olympic.org/germany — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.39.168.48 (talk) 02:42, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

The question is if this segmentation is correct from an encyclopedic point of view. Also, as has been mentioned before, https://www.olympic.org/germany shows that Germany has held the 1972 Summer Olympics. Was Germany, following that logic, host of the Olympics as GER but competed as FRG? Sapere aude. - --DonJusto99 (talk) 07:21, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

So what shall we do regarding Germany (GER) and Federal Republic of Germany (FRG)? --2A02:C7D:51E3:A900:3893:8385:2A2F:5BCC (talk) 19:47, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Germany at the Olympics has the tables that correctly explain the various entities. Jmj713 (talk) 21:36, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Quote from the article "As a result of the Germany being divided, from 1968 to 1990 two independent teams competed in each of the Games; the original designations were GER for the Federal Republic of Germany (West Germany) and GDR for the German Democratic Republic (East Germany). In 1980 the West German code was changed to FRG (which is currently also applied by the IOC in retrospect)." --90.152.126.254 (talk) 15:49, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Interesting article: "The IOC currently splits these results among four codes, « even though only the German Democratic Republic (GDR) from 1968 to 1988 had sent a separate team to compete against the team of the German NOC that represented Germany (GER) since 1896. »" --DonJusto99 (talk) 16:18, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Medal counts in infoboxes

I just went through every "[Country] at the Olympics" article and synced their medal counts with the count provided here, because a lot (like the Soviet Union) were set to zero. Cheers~ ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 12:14, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

External links

Dear Amortias, dear wikipedia editors. Two days ago I adeed external links to source site olympanalyt.com

• for page Afghanistan at the Olympics to LinkAFG,
• for page Algeria at the Olympics to LinkALG,
• ... and so on
• finally for page All-time Olympic Games medal table to LinkAllTime,

but later all of them were rollbacked as spam.

I ask you please to consider and discuss, whether they are actually the spam, given that:

• a) links exactly correspond to themes of articles, i.e. country medals count at games and all-time-all-country medals count;
• b) at all articles already exists external link to similar website sports-reference.com: LinkAFG, LinkALG, and so on;
• c) I inserted links in many articles, that may be really treated as spam, but it would be illogical, if I only made link at Afghanistan page and stopped;
• d) I didn't find in all this wikipedia articles links to any another sources, that shows correct medals counts.

I think it would be useful to keep this links. What is yours opinion? Sincerely yours 109.252.1.144. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.252.1.144 (talk) 16:48, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 February 2018

Change: "The current system of gold, silver, and bronze medals was not implemented until the 1912 Olympic Games" To: "The current system of gold, silver, and bronze medals was not implemented until the 1904 Olympic Games." Valkoun (talk) 17:44, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

 Done Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:21, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

References

Additional tables

Why do we need the ranked tables that were recently added while the main tables can be sorted to achieve the same thing? I didn't want to just outright remove it without discussing it first, but it seems superfluous. Jmj713 (talk) 21:46, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree. There is no need in summer table and winter table.Nitobus (talk) 06:40, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

I think the reason it's there, is because there's no rank numbering (like in usual medal tables) next to nations. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 10:31, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

But that's easy to do by using your eyes, or Excel if needed. A whole separate table is not needed. Jmj713 (talk) 22:28, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

I am removing the two separate tables for Summer and Winter Olympics. It is unclear what the difference is from the first combined table which is sortable. I do not see the rankings as a valid reason for the duplication. Reywas92^Talk 20:45, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

There are links to those tables at Winter_Olympic_Games#Ten_most_successful_nations and Summer_Olympic_Games#Ten_most_successful_nations. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 21:23, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

I fixed the link then. Reywas92^Talk 23:13, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Olympic medals winter map

Does anyone know how to change the color of Hungary, from silver to gold ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alubini (talk • contribs) 00:51, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Soviet union is clearly superior

There should be a row which is average gold medals per olympic competed in, which will show that clearly us is not number one— Preceding unsigned comment added by Alubini (talk • contribs) 00:51, 26 February 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.171.99.124 (talk)

Where is the detailed table that used to exist?

If you think it was to much split it in two parts for W and S games separately. 79.116.233.129 (talk) 10:24, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Olympic Athletes from Russia winter olympics

i think we should add them on the list — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.176.71.219 (talk) 13:07, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

And also to Russian table below. Elk Salmon (talk) 20:03, 2 March 2018 (UTC)